Husband a sex addict but with men

[Ter]

Hi all,

Has anyone heard of the Mankind Project?  My spouse's therapist suggested that my spouse go to a retreat.  I researched it on line and it sounds weird.  There is some nudity involved but the men can choose not to take part.  I cannot believe the therapist would EVEN suggest this to my husband, as he KNOWS my husband has acted out 4 TIMES with MEN during our marriage (yes we are still together and trying to work on rebuilding--if I can EVER forgive him).  And he also has a history of being interested in men due to the sickness of porn/sex addiction and childhood trauma.  My problem is that I found out the gross details about 14 months ago, we went through disclosure, I went to betrayal trauma therapy and thought I was doing good.  I told my husband I was very upset with his therapist to suggest that group (among others) and I started to have flashbacks.  He was not supportive at all and we got into a big fight.  After the fact, he realized that his sarcasm, defensiveness and mocking did not help my triggering!  He's not going obviously, but does anyone have any feedback?  Thanks.

 

 

[Ruby]

Hi EmmaJ. Not sure if you are in the UK but if you are I recommend The Laurel centre. Therapists there have helped me more than I can ever say and my husband too.  I’m almost a year in now from discovery and all I’d say is don’t make any decision about whether  you choose to leave him or stay. It’s much too soon. You’re still suffering the immediate impact of the trauma and the grief of losing the marriage and partner you thought you had. I could write pages on the emotions you may experience, the way you scrutinise and assess every single thing he says and has said and done 

Paula Hall’s books for both partners and the addict are really good. Very accessible and written to really offer help and insight into a terrible situation. There is also a really good one for your husband called  Out of  the Doghouse by Robert Weiss   He’s written a lot about cheating and addiction but this book maybe good for him as he tries to understand the impact his acting out has had in you   

My husband didn’t even begin to have any empathy or understanding for how his acting out impacted on me until at least 4 months after discovery and even the therapeutic disclosure process was an eye opener for him 

Take time to find yourself and heal yourself not him   You didn’t cause it, you can’t control it and you can’t cure it  I found these  three C’s really useful to refer back to when I’m most stressed  

It’s really important that you focus on you and what makes you strong and happy outside of your relationship with him, or at least that’s what I’ve found has helped me. Telling someone u can trust may also help you share the burden you’re carrying and again that’s a very heavy  weight to bear alone.  

 

 

[Ginny]

Hi EmmaJ, agree with what Ruby has mentioned above.  Also, there is a blog series running on the Laurel Centre website at the moment and the 3rd week is on therapeutic disclosure, but I would recommend reading blog week 1 and 2 first before deciding when to a have a therapeutic disclosure (different to the type of disclosure you have mentioned).  Week 1 and 2 will help to focus on your own needs at the moment which is the most important part.  If you live in London, then there is a 8 week partner support group starting this week.

[Mindy]

Hi Ginny, can you advise where to find this blog, I’ve had a look and can’t find it, thanks 

[Ginny]

Hi Mindy, 

Here you go

https://thelaurelcentre.co.uk/blog

[Nigel]

I am a gay man and have been in a what I thought was a monogomous relationship for 13yrs. I recently discoverd that my partner had been using the app Grindr  for the p[ast 3 years and had met  8 men for BDSM acting out as a masochist.

He had been using this app from 6am all day until he went to bed. Last year he completely forgot my birthday and it turned out he was on the app all day.

This app destroys lives and is having a detrimental effect on Gay mens mental health and those who might be tempted in gay casual sex. It uses varialbe response ratio techniques which have can have the effect of making people compulsive and addicted.

 

[Ruby]

Hi Nigel

Its interesting but also sad to hear of the impact this horrendous app is having on your relationship. there must be hundreds if not thousands of people out there similarly affected. I am sorry you one of them. 

Could you explain a bit more about what you mean when you say...

It uses variable response ratio techniques which have can have the effect of making people compulsive and addicted.

I'd like to know more about that please?

Thank you 

 

 

    

[Nigel]

Hi Ruby ,  variable ratio response techniques appear to be used by many apps and attract the user to keep checking the app for responses.

Below is an extract from an interesting article by a Gay Psychiatrist called Jack Turban. who is a resident psychiatrist at Harvard medical School.

"""Grindr, intentionally or not, also leverages a psychological concept called variable ratio reinforcement, in which rewards for clicking come at unpredictable intervals. You may find a hookup immediately, or you may be on your phone for hours before you find one.

Variable ratio reinforcement is one of the most effective ways to reinforce behavior, and it makes stopping that behavior extremely difficult. Slot machines are a classic example. Because gamblers never know when the next payout will come, they can’t stop pulling the handle. They hold out hope that the next pull will give them the pleasurable sound of coins clanking against a metal bin, and they end up pulling for hours."" 

The full article is here https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/4/4/17177058/grindr-gay-men-mental-health-psychiatrist

There are many articles online about the effects Grindr is having on Gay mens well being and ability to form relationships.  Other apps such as Tinder for heterosexual people appear to be having the same effect and work in a very similar manner. I think there has been a study on Tinders effects and possibly one is underway with Grindr users. 

My partner became obsessed with it checking it from 6am to 11pm. Last year he completely forgot my birthday and it turns out he was on the app all that day. My partners activity records show that he even started using it straight after meeting a men looking for the next hook up.

We initially went to Relate but an untrained relationship counselor told me and my partner that ""young gay men like to be promiscuous "", as well as telling him it was ok to have sex for money or fantasize about it. We have been in a relationship for 13 yrs so the comments seemed bizarre to us. We were both shocked at what the counselor said and my partner says he has no intention of meeting any men again or using any apps. When I initially confronted him his response was that he was glad it was over. He is however in denial that he has or had sex addiction and this has been made worse by Relate who told him its all normal. He has no emotional connection with the men and so it is not an affair but this is how he tries to portray it.

[Nigel]

After I found out I gained or was given my partners account logon details and email accounts. I had his old smart phone and was able to track his exact movements over a yr and a half.

I could see he even met men during his work lunchbreak and when he had given me an exscuse of going to meet a friend or relative.

I read 12 mths of messages with guys he met discussing what they had done or wanted to do. Even photos sent to each other. I found that even when I was in bed he was in the other room chatting and sending pictures. I read the messages where he was walking thru the mens front doors. Every sordid detail. For me it was initial disgust and anger but then a relief because now I knew exactly what he had done, where and when. I also knew who with. Some of it was laughable.  Some of it was shockingly odd. These men are on this app 24/7 every day looking for casual sex with whoever is available. Grindr has the dregs of the Gay World , the real sleazy types. It also has normal people. Most who use it realize this and delete the app.  Some then reload and again delete. Its as tho the users have a love hate relationship with it. Knowing its not right but unable to stay away. For some it becomes their life. I soon realized that the men my partner had met are sex addicts as well. CSB is an alternative description Compulsive Sexual Behavior and I can see this in my partner. At times he looked like a wild animal and when I found out it was because he was behaving like a Bull Elephant on heat. It was like a demon possessed. He now says he doesn't want to loose the BDSM acting out he has found and expected me to do it with him moving forward. Its not my thing and makes me cringe.

Grindr works in a different way to most date apps. It uses Geo-location to let you know how close or the exact location of other users. There is little attempt to get to know what other people are like and it it just the mechanical act of sex that 90 % of users are seeking. It is possible to find a sex partner within mins of joining and possibly located within hundreds of feet. It has been likend to the equivalent of an online Glory Hole.  This really is the sleazy end of the Gay World. The same sleaze exists in the Straight world but it is much more underground and not pushed as mainstream like it unfortunately sometimes is in the Gay world. Unfortunately for Gay people sleaze is pushed as product for business profits in gay society. There is no money in monogamy in the gay world as of yet. But things are changing and young gay people are rejecting the stereotypes and sleaze that existed in the older generation when gay sex was illegal and underground. Grindr returns  users to those dark days.

The app even has a facility to check for men along your travel route. Mt partner would check for men as he drove home from relatives or work. It was so bad that last year we went on holiday with his dad to Rome and he was using the app 24/7 trying to meet men in Rome or the Hotel. That really shocked me.

I scrutinized the app and how it works. It is not a nice thing and users can send standard automated messages while cruising for sex. Everything is completely impersonal . Trends of paraphilias abound like the latest craze and I couldn't understand how all these people were all into this same themed role play. 

Grindr makes it all too easy to just have nearly instant sex with strangers.  Imagine what that does to their minds and reason.

No Email verification is required and its completely anonymous and mostly untraceable due to the technical way it sends and stores messages. The messages are not on the apps servers but on users phones. The Grindr company has not access to the users messages.

All in all its a nasty sleazy app that corrupts ordinary peoples minds and turns them into addicts. There are many articles in the gay press on its destructive nature.

 

[Ruby]

Hi Nigel 

 

i had never realised or even thought about it being so insidious. It’s almost as if the app is reinforcing or helping to reinforce the addiction. I’m struggling with why the man I thought was a totally heterosexual husband chose to have hook ups and encounters with men for most of our 21 year relationship. I had absolutely no idea until discovery just over a year ago. He has used the app as I found it on his phone but now it’s deleted  so I don’t really know how much he used it or what or how he met the men on it. It makes me so bloody angry but also do unbelievably sad. I’ll read the articles you shared the links for with interest.   Thank you and I’m truly sorry you’re also enduring so much pain. 

[Nigel]

Hi Ruby ,

I am sorry to hear what your husband has done and for so many years. Being a gay man and also having had girlfriends when I was young I understand that sexuality can be fluid. People tend to make a choice one way or the other which sexuality to  concentrate on or follow. I think many people have sexuality that swings maybe even just a tiny bit each way. Outside influences can sway it either way. Even just an opportunity to experience it. People normally make a choice of sexual path to follow and also make a choice of who is their partner. That is usually a monogamous partner. Some couples might decide otherwise but that is their joint decision. It wouldn't be mine nor I think most people. Its sad that your husband wasn't able to tell you about aspects of his sexuality and that might be due to the stigma that being Gay has carried for years. Things are very different now but the stigma and bigotry are still well ingrained in parts of society.  This leads people to keep secret feelings they might have. Do you think your husband is bisexual or gay but married. There are also men who have sex with men. They are described as such because they do not have emotional ties with men and  do not  associate with a gay lifestyle. I am gay but I do not associate exactly with a gay lifestyle. Your husband hasn't gone off with another woman so it shows that you are what he wants and needs in that respect of his sexuality.

Gay men have historically had to live and make contact in secret spaces. Only recently is it more open and normalised. I luckily never had to experience these secret spaces and was lucky to have long term partners who I just happend to meet. Unfortunately these secret spaces can be seedy and draw people into a world of easy sex. The same is true in the str8 world but far from mainstream. It sounds as tho your husband has  been affected by one of these secret spaces, or an opportunity of gay sex experience arose which he mistakenly took. I say mistakenly because he was married to you. You haven't said if you know if  he had gay sexual contact before you were married or met. I suspect that he had but didn't disclose it to you as he thought is was just a past phase of fluidity and that now he was following a heterosexual sexuality. Even people who are bisexual still have a monogamous relationship with one sex or the other. Its no license to have both. But some relationships might be like that and both partners enjoy it within the confines of the relationship in three sums. But thats both to choose.

I hope I am giving you a better idea of sexuality and an understanding from my gay perspective. I hope it helps you in some way. Cheating on you is horrible but have you explored with him his other sexuality. When he was young etc. There are many many straight men on Grindr and all the other platforms for gay people. Its not unusual and people would be very surprised if they knew the extent. What isn't right is people who are in relationships cheating on their partners , gay straight bi or whatever.

In respect of Compulsive Sexual Behaviour AKA sex addiction, (compulsive gives a better vision of it ) triggers can cause people to loose their senses and do mad things disregarding others feelings. Just sex on its own can do that without an addiction. Do you know what triggered your husband to act out while being married to you ? It seems as tho once a person acts out without discovery it makes them think they can do it again to get the same quick fix.  As with all addicts they then crave more and more of the dopamine effects in the brain. This combined with apps like Grindr or the hetrosexual / bisexual Tinder is a recipe for disaster whether they are in a relationship or not. They leave people unable to have what we think of as a normal relationship. Thats not saying, not normal relationships are not ok as well. But only if all party's agree.  Grindr is 10 years old and its effects are shocking on gay society and mens mental health. Its all very short term hits. Look up Ghosting , that says what has happened to relationships and has only come about since online dating .

Having sex with people any way you like is fine. As long as you are not in a marriage or monogomous relationship. Just remember tho he hasn't gone off with other women.

XX

[Nigel]

If the app has only been deleted then the profile will still be active. All messages tho will have been deleted as they are stored in the phone app. It takes 3 mins to load and start the app. many users load it, use it and meet, then delete it but keeping the profile alive. It is that quick and easy.  I managed to hack Grindr on my partners old phone without a password. It had all his messages for nearly a year. Graphic detail and photos. It made me psychically sick but it was also a relief to know what he had done.

[Denise]

Hiya...I’m devastated, 18 months ago found out my husband had been dogging for years, he said he just watched men....6 months ago I I caught him out again even though he said he had stopped, I didn’t let it go as easily this time, I wanted to know exactly what he was up to, he says he went dogging but it was only men and that he did join in, he says they just brought each other off and nothing else, he also admitted that he has been addicted to porn since way before he met me....he started reading support strategies online and he now says that he’s not done anything since 6 months ago however, he still cannot have sex with me as he loses his erection I know this is due to the death grip/ porn stuff and I cannot satisfy him.  My intuition tells me he’s still up to stuff and I’ve been to hell and back, I thought he was my lovely, gorgeous soulmate.....I am 60 now and can not afford to take the risk of wasting another few years so Im splitting up with him, the annoying hurtful thing is that I am in a mess but he doesn’t seem to care that much, he hasn’t said I love you for years .  A few years ago a condom dropped out of his back pocket so I don’t believe the dogging was just wanking (sorry to use this word) and I find I don’t believe a word that he says...he will go on, meet another person and will move on and live a happy slate wiped clean life.....my head is absolutely screwed up, feel I will never trust again, I was abused as a child and married to an abusive man before I met my husband 

he knew all this and yet he has just made the past 18 years a lie.....I don’t know how I’m going to get through this....like you I do not understand any of this x

[Ginny]

Dear Denise,  Thank you for sharing which is a very painful situation.   It is  deeply traumatic and something that is very difficult to talk about with friends or family.     There are resources out there for partners to help them through the devastation that they find themselves in.   I would recommend getting Paula's partner book (Sex Addiction : the Partners Perspective) which has a lot of useful material in it.   We also write blogs aimed for the partner.   We did a little mini series a few months ago, here is the link to the first one:  https://thelaurelcentre.co.uk/blog/mind-body-and-soul-betrayal-part-1.  The first part of your recovery journey is to learn to surf.   The acrostic SURF comes from the saying by mindfulness guru, Jon Kabat-Zinn "You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf".  SURF means:

S - Survive the trauma

U  - Understand the cycle of reaction

R - Repair self-identity and self-esteem

F - Face the future

The Laurel Centre also offer individual therapy or workshops for partners.   You are not alone in this journey.  Be kind and gentle to yourself.  This is not your fault.

[Alyssa]

Hi all, 

I know this thread has been inactive for quite some time but I was wondering if anyone had any updates? 
 

I am in a very similar situation to the original poster and it’s been 2 months since doomsday. There have also been  multiple different sets of disclosure along the way since then, but I finally have what I believe to be the full picture and the whole truth of what has actually taken place. Which feels like a relief but also, every lie and subsequent confession did retraumatize me and it felt like I was going back to day one. So in that case, it’s been about 2 weeks since ‘doomsday.’ 
 

I can’t focus on anything else and I’ve only spoken to my therapist about any of this. I feel like I have now been forced into a double life because of his. Spending time with friends and family feels fake because they have no idea what is going on or how I feel under the surface. 
 

I feel a small bit of optimism because of how much he’s taken responsibility, has shown remorse and is taking the initiative to fix things. But after reading the accounts of others online I can’t help but feel that hope is false since so many attempts at rebuilding seem to lead to reoffending and ultimately failure. 
 

It has also been tough because although this conversation is centred around SA, he doesn’t feel that is completely relevant to his situation. And he has been adamant that he is not gay/bisexual and has absolutely no attraction to men. We have talked endlessly about it and he still maintains that his actions did not come from a place of sexual desire or release. As he explains it, his need for stimulation was perpetuated by porn before we even met, leading him into the seedy underbellies of the internet. Which lead to some bisexual curiosity. Having grown up in a very accepting and loving home, no religious homophobia whatsoever, many LGBTQ+ friends and a few family members, and in a generally accepting society here in Toronto - he chose to experiment and explore this curiosity. Which I understand myself as a bisexual woman. 
 

After the initial experience he claims he knew without a doubt he was straight and it just wasn’t for him. But that this still somehow lead to an escalating addiction or compulsion to sending photos, messaging online on various DL websites, and meeting with men on several occasions, because of the anxiety that came with doing something secret and ‘taboo.’ His disappointment with his failures in life, bad decision making, and general poor self esteem then fuelled his need for this anxiety to continue a pattern of existing self sabotage but also to help him cope with the anxieties and depression in the rest of his life. He describes it as  a distraction’ that he wanted to feel terrible, he wanted to not be in sexually arousing situations and seeking sexual release, but to use the sexual behaviour as a vehicle for self harm. The compulsion to use these situations this way also came in waves and was triggered by times when he felt very low and would be short bursts of around 2 weeks of messaging, eventually leading to a meet up and then nothing for quite some time until the next cycle. 

He experimented with asian massage parlours and webcammed with two women in that time. I also saw some evidence of him reaching out to M4Fs on occasion while responding to M4Ms, but he says that the women often wouldn’t respond and his attempts were unsuccessful anyway. And that part of using seeking out these men specifically was because of their willingness to partake and the other party’s own personal discretion and shame which made him feel safe from being found out. He described the massage parlours as having a similar effect in giving him that quick awful ‘punishment’ feeling but in that they weren’t quite the experience he was looking for because he actually climaxed during the encounters. But he chose them initially because he knew it would make him uncomfortable and feel badly. He explains away the webcamming with women as an act of convenience that arose while in various bisexual chat rooms and that they also made him feel terrible but in a different way because of the sexual enjoyment so he didn’t continue pursuing it. 
 

He claims every sexual encounter was very short lived and that he always chose ‘open door policies’ for their discretion but also so he could exit as quickly as possible. He never climaxed, he sometimes didn’t even make it in the door but when he did he said the anxieties would increase until he had ‘reached the level of punishment he was willing to handle’ at the time and then bolt. 
 

I guess just after 6 years of gaslighting and deception I can’t help but feel like he’s lying to me about his sexual appetites and interests. But I also don’t understand why he would feel the need to lie about them? I myself am Bisexual and he knows and has said himself that he could tell anyone in his life and they would greet it with nothing but love and support. He’s also acknowledged that his life could remain completely unchanged if he were to feel that way and come forward with it. He’s read many ‘coming out’ stories, articles on sexuality and bisexuality, books, and listened to podcasts in the past 2 months - so he is most definitely not avoiding the idea or thought. 
 

He also can see and know how 1+1 not neatly adding up to 2 is absolutely destroying me. By adding this extra confusing layer to what is already a shit sandwich. And he’s acknowledged that all the questioning of his sexuality can be tiring (to be fair I’m repeating myself often and not so great to be around right now) and that it would be easier if he could just explain it away like that for himself and for me. That he wishes he could but he doesn’t want to live a lie or continue lying to me. Even if it were to give me some comfort. He grew up in the punk scene which is filled with sexual fluidity, and openly gay and bisexual men. He has rationalized his acceptance and exposure to it all in helping him to even carry out these actions or be ‘ok’ with getting through them, because he ‘genuinely has no qualms with a penis being around him.’ But at the end of the day he has still been cheating on me with predominantly men for the last 6 years so it’s all just a wild mess in my head. 
 

Despite all this, he still insists that he has absolutely 0 romantic or sexual attraction to men or male genitalia. And I know that at the end of the day his sexuality doesn’t matter, the infidelity and betrayal does, but my PTSD brain is fixated on it not because of the orientation itself but because of the idea of there being more dishonesty. 
 

The fear and the risk of such a level of dishonesty, I know, will also only end in disaster. You can’t deny yourself of who you are or push it down and try to forget it, no matter how strong you are. If it doesn’t lead to another direct betrayal by ways of infidelity, it will most certainly lead to just a sad, unfulfilling life, that is dampened with inescapable depression because the cause of that depression is not being met or addressed.  So I’ve also fixated on the truth of his feelings because it feels like I need that information to assess the risk moving forward. 

I love this man to death but now part of me feels like I don’t even know who I’m in love with. A persona? A front? Am I a beard, or just a prop for the fantasy of ‘attached’ ‘straight’ and ‘discreet’ gay sex? We got engaged a year ago and have been living together for 6 years, I thought we had a solid relationship, respect for one another, and endless love.  Now I don’t know what I have. I was just in the middle of planning a wedding and now I’m batting away questions about ‘if we’ve set a date yet’ with bullshit excuses about COVID. He claims to still and have always loved me and that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, but if he did then why would he risk it all for absolutely 0 reward?! I mean he didn’t even orgasm apparently!
 

I hear some of your stories and you’re so much further down the line than I am, with children and a house and it’s all far more complicated. Part of me feels like he’s done me a favour of giving me an out before I’ve committed to any of those things with him. That the embarrassment and heartbreak of ending things would subside with time because of the amazing people I have in my support system. That I would be saving my future children from a disaster, because if I were to choose to stay and he ever hurt them I could absolutely never forgive myself for being so naive and stupid. And then there’s another part of me that still feels like he is my favourite person in the whole world, my soulmate, and leaving him without trying would be a rash mistake. But I want kids and a man who’s head over heels for me and would never even consider doing what he’s done… and I still have time to build that. I just can’t shake the feeling that I still want those things with him.

 

He’s even assured me that if I didn’t want to have children he would still want to be with me for the rest of his days. That there isn’t some attachment to the happy heterosexual family ideal tugging at him to try and make it work. He’s also acknowledged that at this point, the past two months have been so hard for the both of us, and him being a fiercely  independent, stubborn person, he genuinely feels that it would be easier just for us to part ways and for him to runaway and carry out the rest of his days doing whatever he wanted when he wanted. That his only apprehension (aside from his ‘feelings for me’) would be the disappointment his friends and family would have for him because of his hurting me - but that would also subside. He says his natural instinct is to run, like with everything else in his life, that he’s not preserving this for fear of being outed and this relationship ending. I’ve even offered to keep the details of his infidelity a secret until he was ready to come out to everyone directly after our splitting. Because I do respect him, and I’m not in the business of trying to ruin people’s lives for some short lived revenge. 
 

I’ve had moments where I can’t breathe, I’m paralyzed by fear, and a deep feeling of loneliness all come crashing through me, tearing my brain and my heart apart. And these feelings are exactly what he has claimed to be pursuing. I just can’t imagine someone wanting to feel that way and actively hunting it down. I mean, one things for sure it definitely is distracting… but how can someone even function and manage to fool his partner with happiness and love while feeling this way?! It seems utterly impossible, although I know this perspective is not the same because it’s coming from a relatively healthy person. Or one who used to be anyway… 
 

I know you’re not professionals, and our situations are all unique. I know you may not even see this message considering how long ago this thread was active. But I guess I just needed to type this out to scream into the void. And if anyone does happen to see this, if they could tell me their story or give me their opinion on all of this I would greatly appreciate it. 

I have been desperately digging through the internet to find some sort of explanation that validates his story. But he only claims parts of them to feel relevant to him, nothing ever quite fits the bill. I believe we all live vastly different lives, but I also believe that at least one person somewhere has experienced the same thing as someone else. And that thought was always a comfort before now. Now, when I can’t find anything that can explain his behaviour and his explanation - that thought torments me. 

I feel like I’ve been in a perpetual state of fight or flight for the last two months and I don’t know what to do. Once I end it I know it’ll be done forever and there’s no going back. Once my family and friends know there will be no chance of forgiveness - so I don’t want to do it until I’m absolutely sure. 
 

I guess, I’m just still not sure yet, but I wish I could be. 
 

I love all of you, 

Alyssa. 

[Sasha]

Any one help? :(