Jump to content
Claire

Sex addiction and lack of empathy

Recommended Posts

Hi,

I've just finished reading Paula's book for partners and have found it very helpful.  My husband began using porn 10 years ago and I had absolutely no idea even though the signs were there.  He confessed 2 and a half years ago because he says he couldn't live with the shame any more and thought telling me would make him stop.  He has admitted that he didn't come clean because of any feeling of guilt or concern for me - I was never an issue  all through the years. 

I won't go into my shock etc as it's been well documented how partners suffer on discovering sex addiction in their relationship.  My question concerns recovery in the addict and the absence of empathy.  We have been to 6 therapists over the 2 and 1/2 years.  One of the therapists was a marriage counsellor and the others were all individual therapists - one for me and the others for him.  I have been determined from the start to stay with him for the sake of our two teenage boys.  They come first for me - of that there is absolutely no doubt.  But it's becoming impossible to continue living with him as he shows no empathy whatsoever.  From the outset he has insisted on talking about my "issues".  He says he's sorry for what he's done but that I have problems too that need to be addressed.  The marriage counselling was particularly hard to sit through as he would bring up petty incidents from the past to try and shame me and would minimise what's being going on for the last 10 years.  Therapists have pointed out his lack of empathy and used lots of examples to try and make him realise that he's not showing genuine remorse  but he simply doesn't agree with them.  I never really knew what the word "defensive" meant before but I could write a book on it now!  We're together 34 years and had a fantastic relationship up to about the time this started.  I've given up on the marriage therapy now as it just wasn't working for us.  She would tell him to try certain things to help with his empathy and he would seem enthusiastic but by the next day all would be forgotten.  He has admitted to feeling great anger and resentment towards me and I feel it in everything he does.  I don't understand it.  I sometimes panic because I think he's still manipulating me and I sometimes feel so helpless as if my brain is in a fog and if I don't get away I'll end up in a padded cell! 

Has anyone out there experienced anything similar to this?  I am desperate as I feel I can't take any more but I worry so much about my sons.

Claire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claire

Yes I think many of us have struggled with this - I'm sorry for what you are having to deal with.  It really can mess with your head, like you say.  It sounds like maybe he isn't really owning his stuff and being totally committed to turning things around?  I get the feeling you are working harder on this than he is, which isn't the right way round when it is HIS stuff that is causing the problem!

Has your husband done Paula's course - this is something they address on it and my husband changed dramatically after doing the course.....he learned to take responsibility for his own stuff and not try and blame ANY of it on me which was such a relief and probably saved our relationship.  Even reading Paula's book may help him understand that this isn't about your stuff - yes, of course, all of us partners are imperfect and could do with working on ourselves but that is nothing to do with his sex addiction.  

do whatever you can to get him on the course - will be thinking of you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Polesden,

Thanks so much for that.  It's a great help to me to hear from someone with similar experience to me.  No, my husband hasn't done the course as we're not based in the UK.  I wonder would it make a difference at this stage as we've had nearly three years of therapy and he's still playing the blame game with me.  He'd never agree with you that it's his stuff that's causing the problem.  During our last marriage counselling session he spent a considerable amount of time talking about a row we had in 1988 that was all my fault!

Having read Paula's book and other literature based on this whole ghastly nightmare I'm beginning to think that I'm flogging a dead horse.  Paula's 5 pillars that we are asked to read every day deal with not being able to change your partner and I think maybe it's time I accepted that and try to move on.  It's great that you both managed to turn things around but I seriously doubt at this stage that it's a possibility for us. 

Claire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claire,

I've just read through the posts and wanted to make sure you were aware that we can provide therapy via video skype.  Many people come to our intensives from other countries, so that doesn't have to be a barrier.  But if travel isn't possible, we can support you, your husband, or/and you as a couple via skype.  I know it's not the same as face to face, but it's better to work in this way with an experienced therapist than face to face with someone who's not trained in this field. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Paula for that.  I hadn't realised that it was possible to get therapy via skype.  I will say it to my husband although I'm reluctant at this stage to try anything new as I'm worn out having been through absolute hell for the last two and a half years.  I'm afraid of getting my hopes up at all as I've been working on acceptance of the situation lately and your book has been a great help to me.  Hope can obscure reality and my reality for so long has been that I'm in an extremely miserable relationship with a man who refuses to accept what he has done and has blamed me from day 1. The only reports that I have ever got from him regarding his sessions in therapy is what the therapist thinks I should do ....one apparently "loves the sinner (me) but not the sin (mine!)!!  Confused?  Me too!  He insisted one time on accompanying me to my therapist so that he could tell her " how I have damaged him".  I'm seriously at the end of my tether and feel there's no hope. 

I will mention your therapy to him however in case he wants to avail of it.. It is extremely difficult to find a therapist here with the proper training in this field. He has been to 5 though and they haven't had any breakthrough.

Thanks so much for your reply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claire

How are things for you? Wondering if you talked to him about skyping with a trained sex addiction therapist - I guess you have nothing to lose by asking him - and if he's not willing to try then maybe that gives you an indication of his desire to work n his stuff.....hang in there

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Polesden,

I really appreciate you  checking in but unfortunately things are not good.  He let me know with a shrug the other night that he had read Paula's book about partners a while ago.  I had hoped that reading it might make some difference to his attitude.  No difference whatsoever.  The book he read in his mind was "Sex Addiction:  The Addict's Perspective".  I just don't understand what's going on in his head.  How could anyone read that book and not have some sympathy or empathy for the partner?  More counselling would just be a waste of time.....

Claire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claire, 
Sorry to hear that. My husband was also addicted to sex a few years back. It was about to ruin our relationship. I was thinking about having a divorce. Then, a friend of mine asked me to take him to a sex addiction treatment in Bellwood. The treatment over there was really effective and he is completely out of addiction now.
So, don't lose hope. There are several solutions available. You have mentioned that marriage counseling was not successful. Therefore, you can try taking him to an addiction treatment as I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Claire,

I read your post with great sadness about your husband's lack of empathy and understanding.

From my own personal experience, I found it very hard to acknowledge the damage I'd done to my marriage. It's taken me considerable amounts of clean time to be able to step back and discuss things calmly with my wife and really dwell in the situation from her viewpoint. It's hard because for me, my own self-loathing and guilt over my behaviour would get in the way. That then manifests as anger, defensiveness or indifference, which would be very hurtful towards her. It's taken a lot for me to challenge that in myself. Sometimes when I can empathise, it's a very difficult place for me to be in as I can feel how much hurt has been caused by the many years of lying and undermining of trust. More weirdly still, it would be easy for those difficult feelings then triggering me into wanting to act out more... ! 

It may sound brutal but for me, us separating after she had an affair was the rock bottom point where I realised things cannot go on. As an addict, I just wanted a quiet life where I could continue acting out really without needing to change or be bothered much by demands from real people and the real world. While things "kind of" worked, I was "happy" to go on - or rather, not sufficiently motivated to change. It was a horrible place to be but had become so ingrained into my thoughts at every level. This is the "bubble" you might hear addicts talk about. Only by spending a lot of clean time outside the bubble and with my own thoughts without distraction have I been able to work on myself. From there, I start to be able to see things differently. Rather than my wife angrily pointing out (correctly) my behaviours and the defensiveness etc. Strangely and interestingly, the longer I've spent away, the less angry and defensive I am etc. Continuing to use porn really makes your head very very screwy. But it takes a long time and commitment as well as being able to look at yourself objectively but crucially not judgementally or critically. That is all work your husband needs to put in though. You are not going crazy.

Us addicts fundamentally do not have a good healthy relationship with ourselves. So until we can develop that, we can't offer it to others. For me, part of recovery has been working that out. 

It's completely understandable that you find this lack of empathy as upsetting and frustrating because it's a core part of a healthy intimate relationship for most people. All the distress and hurt that goes with it is very hard to bear. Above all, just as your husband has to sort out his problems and learn to take care of himself properly, you have to look out for yourself too and find support however you can. My wife particularly found it very hard to be able to talk about it to friends and has found it isolating because of that.

Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

I really appreciate those of you who got back to me with such kind and helpful advice.  I found your message, Rob, to be particularly helpful as it gave me an insight into my husband's way of thinking as an addict.  My husband is very much still in the "bubble" you refer to but being unfamiliar with this term, I have always called it a shell which unfortunately is impenetrable. I have accepted this.  I gave up trying to reason with him a year ago.  I had revisited our marriage counselor in the hope of making one last effort to save our marriage and he seemed on board  - for a few hours.  Next day we were back to normal.  All my efforts were met with resistance - his words said he wanted a loving relationship his actions said otherwise.  I have wasted so much time in trying to make sense of this but have come at last to the understanding that one cannot reason with an addict.  Their actions do not make sense.  The addict did not want to make it work but that would mean having to commit to a life of sobriety.  We've been on this merry go round for over three and a half years and I'm exhausted. I realize now that there has been little or no sign of him being in recovery all this time.  His last counselor who was treating him for trauma in childhood terminated the counselling on the basis that she said he wasn't in recovery and needed residential addiction counselling.  I met her for one session and she spoke of his resistance, his obsession with my behavior and his unwillingness to own what he's done - all of this I witness on a daily basis.  His response, as always, was  to refute what she said.  

I have finally accepted defeat.  I desperately need to separate from him - but what about my two beautiful sons - it breaks my heart to see them embroiled in this sordid mess.   I have proposed a separation whereby they stay in the family home and we divide the time we spend with them between us.  I even moved out for 2 and 3 days a week during the winter to let him see that it would be the best way forward.  But there has been no cooperation from him.  We are still living in the same house.  I feel powerless against this disease.  Can anyone help?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claire, 

I'm new here - only joined today. I came here looking for support in knowing I'm not alone. On reading your posts, I have to admit that my own pain took a back seat. Their are only two things I can say to you; 1) You have tried so very hard to support your husband and save your marriage. I can understand that you are now at the end of your tether. However, only you can call time on your marriage. 2) It is better for children to have one happy parent than two unhappy ones. 

Stay strong, and know that you are not totally alone. There are others, like myself, who are in turmoil too even though you don't know them personally; they are out there feeling just as lonely, lost and isolated. 

Take care of yourself. You are important, and you are, clearly, a compassionate person who has a lot to give. 

Miriam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Miriam,

Your message means a lot to me.  It is so comforting to know that I'm not alone .  I have only told my two sisters the truth about what's going on - I know it would help to talk to others but my sons haven't been told and I want to protect them from the truth, at least until they're older.  Besides it's not an easy topic to discuss.  I do realize however that this secrecy is bad for the soul and only compounds the loneliness and isolation. 

I hope you find help and comfort here on this site.  I realize that my posts are bleak and lacking in hope but that's only been my experience.  Many here have sought help and are in recovery so there is hope.  I would recommend Paula's book for partners as it helped understand some of what was going on.

I really wish you the very best.  Keep heart and keep strong.

Claire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this thread started quite some time ago, but I felt compelled to post. Claire, you are most definitely not alone. My husband's lack of empathy has been one of the most devastating parts of all this. I'm sure like every other partners of sex addicts or for anyone who has been cheated on, I wanted my husband to be more than just apologetic. I needed him to empathize with the trauma he caused. I wanted him to be truly remorseful and prove that he was truly remorseful by taking the time to understand the intense pain and how my world flipped up side down and crashed! I wanted him to prove his remorse by taking action and doing everything he could to get help for our family individually and together. It took having to kick him out via police after an intense fight and after six months of no effort. Seeking counseling from relational trauma specialist has been very helpful! From much research reading experiences from other spouses and from my own experience, counselors that use the trauma model is the absolute best!! I can't stress that enough!! I was able to find a place that gave us individual counseling with different counselors that met each of our specific needs. They even had a counselor for children. I felt it best for my husband to go to one of the male counselors because many other of my husband's issues had to deal with a lack of a healthy male influence growing up. My husband would never listen to any of the women in his life, but he second a man said the same thing, it was like everything clicked. It was very frustrating that I needed a man just to translate anything to my husband and even more frustrating that much of the advice I received before discovering his addiction was for me to be a more submissive wife (eye roll). I mention this because my husband's inability to listen to women, which makes up our whole family, added to his inability to listen to my pain and needs, and by extension contributes to his lack of empathy. If you're still having a hard time in counseling, I hope my experience can help you find other possible options. My thoughts are with you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob,

I enjoyed reading your post. Not only were you sincere, but also honest and encouraging. I've been on many blogs and forums for sex addiction and not many addicts are able to empathize with their spouses trauma or anyone else's for that matter. I think it's great that you've come a long way and that distance has made you more sensitive to your wife's pain. I know it's hard not to get defensive when someone is angry. I appreciate that you recognize that your wife was correct in her assessments even though she did so confrontationally. However, it is my sincere hope that you also recognize that your wife was under much duress and healthy communication lacks with sex addicts; therefore she may have continually found herself in a situation where she had to get angry in order to be heard. I don't mean this as a criticism! I commend you on how far you come in recovery and in personal growth. I mention it because I found that many time the addict pleases unrealistic expectations of understanding, compassion, and empathy on their spouses as if we are super human, which only makes us feel more unloved, unimportant, and unvalued as our needs continue to go unmet. Many sex addicts hold unrealistically high expectations for their traumatized spouse to meet the needs of the addicts, but do not hold themselves to the same standards or expectations. I'm not saying this is currently you! I'm only offering another perspective while venting to someone who seems to get it. I appreciate you validating the pain and experiences of spouses like myself. It means a lot. I hope you are now able to do the same for your wife. As much as your comment meant to me and I'm sure others, I know your wife would find this healing as well. My thoughts are with you and your wife. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hoping your counselling is still going well, Chris, and that you and your husband are making progress.  Your message was a source of comfort to me in that it's such a sad and lonely place to be - the wife of a sex addict - because there's just so little known about sex addiction and so few people to talk to about it.  One of the problems that I find with sex addiction is that it can be so easily hidden and is very difficult to prove.  My husband has become a very nasty and cruel person as a result of his addiction.   He tells lies to friends and family about me to explain why we're separating but omits to tell them of his own problem!  When I confronted him about this he replied that "they know all they need to know"!  I just can't talk to him any more as nothing makes sense and I feel completely powerless.  But my sons need a stable environment and I just can't seem to give them this as I'm up against an all powerful sickness that has completely taken over their father.  What do I do?  I don't want to tell them the truth yet and I don't defend myself against anything my husband says about me as I really don't see the point.  I have been living away from home in friends' houses and abroad on holiday all summer as I can't live under the same roof as him.  My boys were with me for some of the time but now they're at home with their father.  I have begged and pleaded for a 50/50 arrangement so that the boys can stay in their home and we take equal turns at living there but there has been no cooperation from my husband.  It's an insane situation - I've done nothing and yet I'm the one living out of the house. I'm all alone at the moment and want so much to go home but I can't - how crazy is that!

You're lucky to have met good counsellors who seem equipped to deal with the problem.  Our counsellors were mostly out of their depth.  We had a year with a marriage counsellor, a nice woman but who dealt with us as an ordinary couple without coming to grips with the reality that is sex addiction in a marriage.  

I wish you the best and thank you for taking the time to get in touch.  It means a lot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The title of this thread is really where I feel I am at, at the moment. I am really lost and don't know what to do.

@Rob, I really appreciated what you wrote there, it is interesting to get a perspective that is not the partner. 

@Chris, you have hit the nail on the head with do more than apologise I need to air out how I feel here because part of me worries that I am doing something wrong. I think my husband feels he doesn't need to keep apologising because he apologised already. But anyway its not just about apologising anyway, I have said all the things you listed in your quote already. And he always responds by saying what do you mean? How can I be more empathetic? What do I need to do? Just tell me. So I say things like, listen when I cry, and talk, and don't get defensive. Or understand it's hard for me to be physically close. Or understand I can't be around your mother because she doesn't think you've done anything wrong and it upset me that she felt so confident to say that. And his response is, well I told you already I'm sorry, and I don't push you for sex so you should be happy. Then he'll say but I do want to have sex and I'm unhappy we have no physical relationship. He'll say I don't push you to spend time with my mother, but I want you to and I want you to know she has a right to be upset with you because you've pushed her away in the past, or when you were upset you didn't even say hello to her. So you need to realise you're wrong too.

@Claire

It's been a while since you posted and I don't know if things in your situation improved. I feel I can relate to some of what you say. And was almost relieved at what you wrote. Can I ask if anything has improved? I understand your feelings about your two sons, I know everyones situation is different, but ultimately if you are happy and fulfilled you're giving the best for your children, when you are not it's much harder. We are all a better version of ourselves when we are happy within. If you are also able to be this way and be in the relationship then it's worth exploring but sounds like you have done a lot?

I feel almost the same, I feel I have tried, I have been patient with recovery, I was patient with disclosure, I rooted for him I still do even though the whole time this has been heartbreaking. I took a step back in the early days of recovery, I sought help and counselling and I worked on myself to get my strength back. I got to a point eventually where I was open to couple work to see how we could get through this. It didn't go so well.

I feel that although he is not 'acting out' as such there are some things that just don't sit right with me. Maybe its the cause of the addiction, lack self love, entitlement and not being open about feelings that haven't been addressed. It is also his total lack of empathy. He occasionally tells that me he is still working on this , but most of the time he tells me that the biggest issue in the relationship is me because I am unstable and don't know what I want. He tells me that because I am unable to fully BE in the relationship that I am the problem.

My husband continues to tell me how he wants a relationship with me where I'm stable, and not angry or upset at times. He says "I don't know what I'm coming home too, sometimes you're happy, sometimes you're angry and will be short with me, other times you're crying." "I need stability".  He wants to have a sexual relationship with me and is upset and finds it hard to be in any sort of relationship with me as we're not physically intimate. To me there is a lot more to work on that just that.

We were working on a relationship together early last year, 6 months after discovery, and at first I felt like there was hope, he'd been on the Paula Hall partners course and had been regularly seeing his one to one counsellor. I too had regular partner counselling and still do. I have been on the partner course too. When couple therapy started in 2017, he said he didn't need to work on himself anymore and he just needed to work on us. This made me uncomfortable and I communicated that to him, but he said he was no longer acting out, and felt like he had control over his feelings now.

I eventually put couple counselling to an end because the focus was continually on him. He kept saying he didn't understand what he needed to do, he just wanted to be in a good relationship, how he just wanted to know whether I was in or out. He didn't understand how to empathise. He said he just needed a list of what he could to, examples things to tick off.  

There has been a lot of turmoil since then, I have left and come back, but when I left he said he realised he needed more than just sex addiction counselling, that there was more he needed to work on, he said his feeling of entitlement, his communication and happiness outside of being in a relationship needed to be worked on. He has been in weekly psychotherapy since November 2017. He doesn't share much about what they work on and when I ask he is very short about it.

But I too feel he is obsessed with my behaviour, how I am upset, angry, traumatised. Before all this happened I was very giving, I spent a lot of time with him and his family. I prioritised 'us' and looking back I feel that it was all things that I knew would make him happy, he used to come across so stressed and upset and made me feel that I had the power to make everything better, so I tried because I wanted to make him happy too. However since discovery I have learned a lot about myself and my own behaviours as well as his. I realise now that there is co-dependancy evident in the relationship and for my own recovery I need to work on that. But I honestly feel that my recovery harms him. Maybe I take my boundaries too far? But I am protecting myself, and he isn't consistent enough for me to take this protection down. I know we all need to take risks in a relationship in order for it to bloom but I still feel he isn't genuine enough to really take on board my feelings or situation. 

For example, my relationship with his family has detoriated through lack of support, but also I have for the first time in a very long time started to focus on myself, making time for my own needs and requirements to ensure my own well being i.e spend time with my friends, make time for myself, i have only so much time to dedicate to others and they're not the top of my list, besides it gives me anxiety being around them, especially when I don't even feel safe around him either. So for this reason, that is on hold. This causes problems.

I have also set boundaries on physical intimacy, this is mainly due to not feeling safe, the trauma from sex with him before discovery and ultimately not feeling connected to him has resulted in a shut down of physical intimacy. He is so detached from being able to empathise with what Im going through that I do find it hard to be close to him. It is like he is just waiting and wanting for me to be 'fixed' so that he can list his demands on me again. Yes I am unstable but this is because of everything that has happened. He makes me feel like I need to start giving back to him, still has an issue that we're not having sex. But then when we're talking he says things like I'm not pushing for sex so why can't you be happy? I'm not acting out anymore, why can't you let it go? I didn't run off with her, I chose you, can't you see I love you? 

There have been times where I have been open to something physical, a small kiss, holding each other at night if we do share the bed, in the last 18 months we have been sexual a handful of times. However he will bring it to my attention and tell me I am not consistent by saying "well why were you able to do that then, and not now, don't kiss me if you can't be like that regularly", ok that's fair but then don't hold it against me that I'm not either! He's right, I am not consistent, but that is because we are not connected on an emotional level. It is because I cant cry on his shoulder and tell him how things make me feel. I can't talk about my fear and anxieties. When I do I get defensive behaviour and anger. I am also not consistent because I have triggers, and times I am upset, and he adds fuel to my vulnerability rather than diffusing it.

I do often think, if I am having a bad moment to not share it with him, I used to do that, it kept the peace. However, I'm then keeping it to myself and suffering in silence, I am human and it will show anyway. So it creates a cold environment for us to be in. He hates that too and tells me its worse when I don't say anything. Counselling taught us to be open and share, with checkins and listening by taking it in turns, but almost 99% of the time when I share he will bulldoze onto me and tell me why I shouldn't feel that way, or that what I'm saying is unfair. Or that I'm not perfect and I do this, that the other. I am left feeling worse than I did before sharing. And when he does share, he is telling me that it upsets him we are not physically intimate, or it upsets him I'm not ready to have kids, or it upsets him I have no relationship with his family. I am the reason for his upset. 

He says that he only wants anything from me if I can give it regularly. I know it must be hard for him, he wants to feel loved by me. But this addiction has really impacted me. I really don't want to be this way.  All I need from him is some understanding, patience and empathy, genuinely. 

When we had couple counselling this time last year, 6 months into discovery, he too chose to shame me about things rather than own up to the situation we are in now. My behaviour hasn't been perfect, I know, but my head is a mess and has been a mess I haven't made the best choices. He makes me feel like I'm the worst wife in the world but then he tells me how upset he is at the thought of losing me. It's confusing. I feel he has a list of demands he needs me to meet, and if I'm not meeting those he's unhappy and I'm not good enough. He doesn't see that I'm the way I am now as a result of all the trauma. I am not punishing him, if anything I am torturing myself.

Just the other day we spoke and we agreed the relationship is probably going to end because neither of us are happy.  He said the important thing for him is to have a healthy sex life with his partner and because Im so distant sexually he doesn't think either of our needs will be met in the relationship. We start with a new couple counsellor next week.

I know there are things that I must be doing that make it hard for him, but the way I see it is there is some serious damage done here, and I am the living consequence of that damage. What does the addict do? Am I the problem? If I can't let it go then I guess maybe I am the problem, but I also don't feel I've had the opportunity to because he's bulldozed on my every feeling, and at any given opportunity he's got his demands. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Joy

Your situation sounds very hard.  In reading your post, what came across is that he is minimising his responsibility in all this, and putting most of it on you.  It sounds like the pressure is on your to change and he doesn't understand his part in how you are.  If he did, he would give you time, kindness, space, love, encouragement.

I am tempted to ask you to give him a message from me, a recovering addict, 'get real'!  When we act out, when we hurt our partners with our unfaithfulness, it is devastating.  DEVASTATING.   It results in devastation.   Some partners get PTSD, it is so traumatising.  It is entirely understandable that you are finding it difficult, he needs to hear that he bears responsibility for this.

I have done the 12steps with SAA over the years.  They talk about making amends for our wrong doing.  Making amends for him would be to give you what you need, not to highlight your faults.  

I wish you well.  Let us know how things go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PJ,

I think your posts are wonderful. You have empathy in abundance and have such a good soul.

Your words are so good for people on here, from both sides.

Keep it up, recognise and celebrate just how good you are and well you are doing.

All the very best to you and your wife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Victoria.  Not sure how to respond - I would have to credit my Higher Power and my wife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×